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 S&W in German/auf DeutschGaia (my fantasy comic) Scarlet (my science fantasy comic) |
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![[0855] Don’t Speak!](/comics/2017-01-26-0855-dont-speak.png "[0855] Don’t Speak!")
- Sandra: I haven’t talked to Cloud for quite some time now. I really should say something or he might think he’s boring me to death.
- Sandra: But I just can’t think of anything. My mind is totally blank. I–
- Cloud: I love how you don’t talk all the damn time like other girls.
- Cloud: That would be seriously annoying.
- Sandra: Whew…!
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Sandra and Woo by Oliver Knörzer is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. See the About page for details.
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No Cloud!!! don’t take for granted that those are her intentions!
That attitude is all fine when Sandra doesn’t know what to say, but when she does know what to say and wants to say it, then there may be a problem. That said, Cloud, are you sure it’s just girls who talk a lot? A cliche is saying so, but one common problem from girls dating is that their date spends way too much time talking, not to seldom self promotion talk.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then to speak up and remove all doubt.
I know just what you’re saying…
(sorry, just had to do it)
Like the philosopher George Thorogood said once…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZloJyTKq2U
You talk too much
I have never seen anyone say “Damn” so happily, while simultaneously bashing on the female populace.
cloud’s single hair standing up is highly triggering me
Don’t speak
I know just what you’re saying
So please stop explaining
Don’t tell me cause it hurts
Don’t speak
I know what you’re thinking
I don’t need your reasons
Don’t tell me cause it hurts
Really disappointed you went the “not like other girls” route. I would have thought better of both Cloud and the esteemed artists.
I like how Woo is completely—ooh, shiny!
Totally enjoying that ride.
@ Morgan:
Most people talk too much. I think it would have worked even if the roles were reversed, but people would still complain…
@ Hobbes:
That was Lincoln, right?
Pretty sure studies have shown that men and women talk about the same. Questioning this ‘joke’ and Cloud’s characterization here, especially with the swear.
It is worth, at this time, questioning Cloud’s motives for saying something like this.
Being annoyed by high schoolers (not just girls) who are always talking about whatever cliques they’re involved with (or feuding with) is one thing, especially when you’re already constantly dealing with a situation in progress that you’re not particularly fond of (adolescence, or school, for example). That’s actually completely unsurprising if you assume this to be the situation.
Being reflexively annoyed by the sound of all womens’ voices, on the other hand, is symptomatic of sexism. Or at least, of a sexism-tinted social maladjustment, which could easily be mistaken for intransigent prejudice (the difference being the degree of awareness of the systematic prominence of that pattern of behavior, and the subject’s willingness to correct their behavior upon learning of the reasons it’s problematic).
Whether or not it coincidentally resulted in Sandra feeling relief in this particular moment from pressure to talk (which admittedly is a social stressor for “introverts”) is beside the point, since that’s a separately-motivated perspective. (Hers, not his.) They’re not causally-linked, except by temporal proximity.
And right about now, woo becomes that raccoon that talks too damn much. That’d be seriously annoyin… nevermind, that would be creepy.
@ Commentary Ver.2.72:
Of course you realize, Woo can’t speak at all in front of Cloud.
@ TachyonCode:
I feel like you’re reading waaayyyy too much into this. Could Cloud have better phrased this? Yes. Does him saying this indicate that he’s sexist? No… It doesn’t even indicate some kind of reflexive annoyance at the sound of women’s voices. It quite simply means that many of the other girls his age he is familiar with talk too much for his taste (from his perspective).
@ Diamond655:
Yes, although technically he could… he just refrains from doing so.
I don’t like it that much when my girlfriend doesn’t talk to me.
Honestly same
Pony-kour wrote:
Now that you’ve mentioned it, Cloud looks to me a bit creepy/slimy in the third panel.
Anybody else think Cloud knew full well what Sandra was thinking and said that just to appease her?
Close call there Sandra…LOL
therapod wrote:
That came to my mind…
Cloud’s brain: Uhh ohh, Sandra is doing that uncomfortable ‘I don’t know what to say’ thing again. I better do something to make her feel better. 🙂
kek at Cloud and Sandra’s expression on the first panel
therapod wrote:
Maybe not that well, but imho he certainly felt some uneasiness, and reacted accordingly.
I’m under the impression that the artists intended this along the lines of appreciating silence and “just being with you” rather than sexism. The most likely reason I see for Cloud’s poor phrasing is that, in past dates, he had to constantly undergo the stress of holding a conversation. It can all be read very differently, though I thought to bring this angle up since I hadn’t seen it mentioned yet.
@ Trimutius:
too late man, he is done for XD
@ Pony-kour:
staing truth is not equall to bashing, if some chick says “boys are dumb because they fight with friends” then i will be like “yes, ma’am we take pride in our idioticy, if we were not idiots, who sould women scold and pamper”
@ TachyonCode:
course they are not on same frequency, you are thinking too much, like way too much, they hardly know each other as romanic intrest but only as friends, 3 years at best as a matter of fact, it takes longer to understand emotional pain and relief of a person, specially of opposite gender.
that being said, saying cloud has such reflex to females in general of being annoyed is overstatement, infact even rude, delusional, downright to point of abusive considering his age at which guys despite being however mature are simple minded, less experieced, he takes example from what he percieves on faily basis, as a matter of fact his prime example of woman is his mother … … .. if she was my mom i’d wish i was born a woman, but on other hand he used “girls” not woman, he is talking about females of his age and general environment, which is very common in most educational places, be it highschool, kinder garden, anything infact.
that being said, i would have not gone as far as saying correcting behaviour keeping things in mind such as how, sandra only wanted to talk thinking about cloud, not by her own will to talk.
Ravelate wrote:
Is “damn” really considered a swear? Dang-it all to heck!
Yay Novil! First ‘controversial’ comic of the year, amirite? I can’t believe how much people get upset over something so trivial as realistic dialogue from 12-15 year-olds. *rolls eyes*
I’ll become a patron soon; waiting on some other critters to come back to the comic first. (Shadow and Sid of course.)
Keep ’em coming, great start; I’m enjoying the state fair arc. 🙂
“Wait wait wait…
What other girls?!” -Every other girl out there
@ TachyonCode:
The man credo: When you’ve got something to say, say it. When you don’t have something to say, don’t say it.
I don’t get the impression Cloud would have the least bit of trouble with it if Sandra had something to say, and said it, rather than just being chatty to break the silence.
BTW, is this the first time he’s put his arm around her? Things are heating up!
Crystalgate wrote:
There is a certain danger when making any sort of broad generalization. There are almost exceptions, especially when it comes to generalizations about humans as we are very diverse. I’m sure that there are some guys who are much more talkative than the average person, for instance. And stereotypes and tropes are often inaccurate, if not hurtful.
That said, there are statistics and studies about such things. And if you do the research, you’ll find that they conclude women -tend- to be somewhat more talkative and more social. As I recall, there’s a scientific explanation for difference, even.
Uh…. I know you didn’t mean it like this, but… women should remain silent? Skirting REALLY close to him saying that.
Yeah, that sounded pretty backhanded insulting, if not in a direct way.
Jesus, I think everyone knows cloud is not being sexist, he’s just appreciating the fact that you CAN remain silent if you want to, and still feel at ease… Why is everyone interpreting so much in this?
He’s not saying women should stay silent, or being sexist, or being a jerk. He’s being honest, simple, kind. Stop reading sexism, racism and other discriminating attitudes in everything in the world, people!
Don’t read so much into it!
Suddenly instead of people speaking their minds, we have to carefully choose wording, because someone can always accuse you of being sexist, racist, nazi, homophobic, whatever….
Just… chill…
nicktyrong wrote:
Maybe the point actually is that significant portion of men can be perfectly fine in utter silence, not speaking a world for HOURS at a time…
and its neither a problem for us nor what.
He does not have a problem with Sandra talking, he is just happy she is not talking all the time. Which can often be an issue.
I’d say, don’t be so sensitive about people bringing up the topic.
@TvTropesgotmehooked
Damn is definitely a softswear that intensifies things at least. Even if you say “all the time like other girls,” it’d be less sleazy and okay, maybe he’s just talking from personal experience. But “all the damn time” makes Cloud sound angry/like he has a grudge about it, and presumably the joke is that it contrasts with his smile, but it just makes him look a bit crazy. I understand that English is a second language for the writer so maybe they didn’t get that nuance, but still…
@xpacetrue
Not quite – there is a questionable article from the Daily Mail/based a single book claiming that women talk three times more than men, but if you see the actual studies that investigate the real data, there’s not really any difference:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/women-talk-more-than-men/
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/do-women-talk-more-than-men/ (small sample group, but same thing)
@Rhiakath
There are a million ways to say “you can be silent if you want to” without insulting women, and they don’t have to include the slight against women (if you say ‘talk all the damn time,’ that means that you’d like it if women talked less). Cloud’s just a character, but yes, this seems out-of-character for him. Which is why some people are drawing it to the author’s attention, because presumably it wasn’t intentional.
xpacetrue wrote:
How dare you. 😡
@ Rhiakath:
I agree completely.
@ TachyonCode:
People are WAY over-analyzing that comment. Most likely, he just told the girl he loves/likes that he likes one of her traits. Most likely, that’s essentially all there was to it.
People don’t always phrase things perfectly, in a way that takes into account all the different ways others could interpret what they’re saying. Actually NOT phrasing things in a way that’s unequivocal is the norm…
Damn. Do we really need to talk about sexism here?
It is a stereotype that most girls like to talk … it’s not totally unjustified (someone else already mentioned statistics), and not necessarily a bad thing either. I think Novil’s just making fun of that stereotype here.
On the other hand, isn’t it okay if Cloud is annoyed by that? It’s like being annoyed by a certain type of music, if you ask me. I’m sure there are lots of girls that are also annoyed by idle chatter.
Finally, being sexist means that gender does matter at all. And it isn’t limited to women either. If Sandra said this to Cloud, would anyone shout “sexism”? Now think again, who’s being sexist here?
Also, Cloud seems more like the oblivious type (especially here) who doesn’t really think about what he’s saying. I’m sure he doesn’t mean to be sexist here.
Sandra on the other hand is really cute here, being all worried for nothing. 🙂
Woo: “Awful lot of talking about talking going on here…” 😉
Tomana wrote:
I have every bit of respect for your concerns, but I said it was worth questioning Cloud’s intentions – not that I had made conclusive assumptions about his motivations. Frankly, all I did was discuss possible labels for them, and then I neglected to actually guess what his motivation is.
But let’s try and investigate his motives, anyway, since you seem so intent on defending a comic strip character who I didn’t actually accuse of anything:
Cloud’s apparent line of reasoning is plainly, as you stated, that “other girls talk too much”. And as you also stated, that’s “his perspective”.
Why would that be his perspective?
Honestly, it doesn’t matter. What you just said has implications – specifically, that Cloud thinks of other girls’ habit of talking a lot as implicitly annoying.
Whether you reach a conclusion that sexism is at play or not – and again, I haven’t definitively arrived at that conclusion myself, because I know how our writer loves to defy our expectations – it is worth questioning his motives for saying that, because to not do so means turning a blind eye to *possible* sexism.
–
You can’t say you know a person unless you’ve at least made an effort to understand them. Otherwise, you’re taking them for granted, and you *are* making assumptions – about them, about what they think of you, and about their intentions when they take any kind of action. (That’s actually worse than accusing them of something, in my opinion, because you’re assuming you know something about them that you haven’t been explicitly told, and then you’re acting on that assumption.)
And, the thing is, comments like Cloud’s, in real life, are problematic – either because they’re symptomatic of prejudice, or because they’re being made by people who aren’t consciously aware of the fact that they’re employing a prejudicial stereotype. They might not even say they agree with it, even if you pointed their use of it out to them.
And whether you agree with me or not, Cloud’s comment *does* employ a stereotype. That is a fact, not an opinion – although whether the stereotype is prejudicial or not is actually still up in the air, until we see more of this scene.
Which it’s entirely possible we won’t.
@ Crystalgate:
I think he’s more referring to the issue of people who seem terrified of quiet to the point that they feel the need to fill any sweet sweet silence with noise regardless of how meaningful that noise would be.
All girls talk too much, all boys talk too much, all white people talk too much, all black people talk too much.
There, I’m probably labeled both sexist and racist now! 😀
Wow.
I get this kind of stuff from my daughter all the time. I make a generalized, but actually mild, comment about some group of people (usually expressing some feeling I have) or make a private inference about a person’s opinion based on what he/she said, and she jumps down my throat about how cruel and insensitive I am. I don’t like having my own daughter jump down my throat in my own house like that. It makes me feel like never talking to her or around her for fear I’ll get censured for some careless comment. I don’t want to hurt her feelings, but I wonder if she ever thinks about the fact that I have feelings too. Having to police what you say in private is not comfortable at all!
Ravelate wrote:
xpacetrue wrote:
I guess both of you could be right if women in average talk 5% or another very low number more than men. That would qualify as both “about the same” and “somewhat more”.
@ TvTropesgotmehooked:
Tvtropes whats up with your comment on the german comic?