![[1253] Yuna’s Immortal Zugzwang Game II](/comics/2021-03-15-1253-yunas-immortal-zugzwang-game-ii.png "[1253] Yuna’s Immortal Zugzwang Game II")
- Logan: Every possible move only worsens my position…
- Logan: Hmm, maybe…
- Yuna: If you put your rook there, then Rxf7, c4, Rxf8, Rxf8, Bxc4, d5, Bxd5, Rf7, Qxf7, check mate.
- Logan: !
- Sandra: That’s not fair! Simply not fair!
- Yuna: Best move may be Re6.
|
Sandra and Woo by Oliver Knörzer is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. See the About page for details.
8888 | Privacy Policy | Impressum | © 2008 – 2021 Oliver Knörzer
Could somebody please decipher for an amateur?
I for one enjoy this storyline.
@ Nikary Flare:
His queen is stuck on the edge of the board blocked by own king and pawns. He has a rook for a bishop but with a queen stuck like that it’s no comfort.
He has rook for a bishop but both his rooks are stuck protecting against checkmate on c2…
Long story short no matter what move he makes can fix his situation… And in this particular case even Yuma on move would not help him as she can just move the king…
And she can literally just just reposition queen to attack pawns while he has nothing that could move to defend.
Seriously I would be considering just giving up the queen for a pawn but it’s just totally lost position. Providing the Yuna version of Paul Morphy does not screw something.
@ Nikary Flare:
Okay, so this is what’s called chess notations, it goes piece(Q=Queen, R=Rook, No Letter=Pawn, etc.) then end space(So A1, A2… F1, etc.). And the x shows a capture/taking of enemy piece. In this case it goes, Rook takes F7, Pawn to C4, Rook takes F8, Rook (re)takes F8, Bishop takes C4, Pawn(?) to D5, Bishop takes D5, Rook to F7, Queen takes F7, which ends in checkmate.
Re6… Well if Yuna takes that he gets his queen out but the most logical is to just move the bishop to e4…
I would go rather for Rent… Starting to harrass the queen hoping to give rook for rook… But that’s just stalling. There is no way to force that trade.
Best end trading that rook for a bishop… But then the queen and rook is still stuck there defending forever. With Yuna having all time in the world to queen the h pawn.
@ Paeris Kiran:
Re5 damn it…
And I have the sides flipped… No analysis after midnight ext time…
Paeris Kiran wrote:
Checkmate on f7, not c2.
This position, with black quin at h8 and white pawn at h6, have no sense. Only very bad player, unexpected beginner, can come to such unnatural situation. And so bad player can’t win 6 and draw one of seven games.
Point A: Yuna is still using her Switch, which means that the ref was willing to let her continue if Logan didn’t object against her. I find that oddly heartwarming.
Point B: Yuna’s ability to do that out of the corner of her eye in the middle of Galar is a perfect illustration of her awareness and thought capabilities. You cannot take your attention of your screen for very long in Galar, unless you pause, so the fact that she was able to notice him about to make an unfavourable move means that she already had a freeze-frame of the board in her mind already, and only needed to account for which piece he was moving and where it was going. From there, of course, she would pause in order to share the notation string, but the instantaneous “Oh, he’s gonna do something he’ll regret” speaks volumes about how readily she went into this.
And, if there are black rooks at e7 and f8 and pawns at f7 and d7 (I don’s see clear), black can play Re6, B×e6, d×e6. However, he is still lost, for his quin is pinned in the corner and can’t return to the game. White play pawn g4-g5 to protect rook, and then Qc7, and black is again in Zugzwang. Need to give Q for R, and it’s an easy win for white.
Ach, I found another nice variation!
Black Re4!? If white Q take rook, black Q can take Rf6. If Qf3, black repeat situation with Re3 (or f2-e2, f1-e1).
However, white still can play Rxf7!! black Rxf4 and then white Rg7 mat! (Y)
(I analyzed it without computer.)
I suppose only piece on the table we don’t see is a white King – could be at g1,h1, g2, h2, g3, h3.
@ Paeris Kiran:
Thanks…I’d read “RE6” in the comic, and wondered if the “6” was a poorly lettered “S”, and the author meant “RES” (as in “RESign”).
Yeah…chess move notation I’ve seen generally use lowercase for the column, like you did … thanks for clearing this up for me! 🙂
@ Hegel Marx:
Hegel Marx wrote:
@ Hegel Marx:
Ach,, correction! I forgot, If white king is at g3 (as we can see at the panel 3!) white pawn need to be at f2 to protect king of checks on 2nd row /by black R from e2 or Q from b2). If not, it could be draw, or even black win.
Thanks!
@ Hegel Marx:
It looks to me like panel 3 shows the white king being on g2, not g3. And I think the first panel shows enough of f2 to make it clear that there isn’t anything there. My best guess of the board position is:
5rkq/3prp1p/5RpP/p1p5/5QP1/1B6/P5K1/8 b - - 0 1Stockfish seems to think that white as a small lead (+1.0).
The real question is: how on God’s green earth did this fellow’s queen end up just completely cornered on h8 after castling? That’s just… that’s an L.
This is borderline torture xD
flamebirde wrote:
The only way i can think of that his queen could have ended up there is his bishop got captured and he decided to recapture with his queen, proceeding to fianchetto it in the process (lol). He probably moved his rook back next to his king to defend against a mating threat or he thought that his queen would be better on the diagonal but either way he probably moved it in response to Yuna pushing her pawn to h6. Yuna then proceeded to lock it in there with her rook and began layering threats all over him. Honestly the worst part about this position is that Stockfish says its even, white maybe barely better. I mean it makes sense, black is basically up a rook and has two… “passed” pawns and if you trade a rook for the bishop you basically remove all the threats in exchange for giving up some material (Yunas suggested move, Re6, does this, but Stockfish says it’s +4 so) but still the queen is in the corner and can’t go anywhere bruh. Also, the move he was going to do (Ree8) isn’t actually forced mate since after Rxf7 the queen is no longer trapped and then simply Qb2 Kh3 Qxb3 axb3 and its a draw why would you play c4 there you literally just take the pawn and you have accomplished nothing. IDK maybe Yuna forgot the queen existed (which is completely understandable tbh it basically doesn’t) or, the more likely situation, she didn’t think her opponent would be able to see giving up his queen for a bishop to avoid losing. She is playing moves intended to take advantage of her opponents inability to find the best move, the material difference also indicates this, I’m quite sure giving up all those pawns and a whole rook wasn’t the best thing to do, but she knew he wouldn’t be able to take advantage of it.. She is intentionally and brutally taking advantage her opponents lack of skill of the game and that is kind of scary.
But on the other hand this guy chose to play Qh8 so he kinda deserves it imo
(btw the best move according to Stockfish is Rfe8 and you eventually play g3 (weird flex but ok) and/or attempt to trade the bishop at some point and then do some weird peice shuffling until the 50 move rule comes into effect. Mr. Hunter here is the kind of person who would play Qh8, so even if he finds this, he will still lose)
position is from Alpha zero vs stockfish.
a review of the game can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFXJWPhDsSY/
@ DTIBA:
Not to mention, Yuna supposedly picked up the game when she wanted to know how the knight moves which likely lead to a deep dive into the world of chess and being the genius sponge she is, Yuna soaked up the knowledge. I’d call it a bluff, but Yuna hasn’t ever needed to bluff in all the years I’ve been keeping up with S&W
Logan knows he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance if Yuna is completely focused on the match hence him hysterically shaking the ref and demanding they allow Yuna to keep playing Pokemon. And even with the distraction of Pokemon, like you said, Yuna is so aware of the board at all times that there’s theoretically no way for poor Logan to win. Dude’s gonna be scarred and may never play chess again after this
@ flamebirde:
In one of the AlphaZero games, it manages to get its opponent so on the run and defensive that most of its pieces are jammed up in the back corners. I’ve never seen a game that was such an epitome of the word “cowering”.
flamebirde wrote:
This position actually happened in master-level play. Search:
Alpha Zero’s “Immortal Zugzwang Game” against Stockfish
The position of the board in the comic is at move 51. Watch the playthrough and you can see how the black queen was forced to retreat into the corner.
@ ldsrrs:
Add a pawn on f2, which appears to be there and is there in the source game, and her analysis is no longer flawed by a queen check on b2
5rkq/3prp1p/5RpP/p1p5/5QP1/1B6/P4PK1/8 b – – 0 1
White is hovering Ree8, and if the touch piece rule is in play must play Re6 or face checkmate in 5 or 6 moves. White should really be a good enough player to see this and to not touch a piece, let alone hovering the move without thinking of this.
Brief explaination of position:
Black is materially up (a rook and two pawns for a bishop) but their peices are tied up unable to move without getting checkmated.
Any move by black will either cause them to put a piece where it can be taken, so you could argue this is a zugzwang. Moving the queen either gets it taken for a cheap pawn (which would leave black unrecoverably done), or lead to a checkmate in two move time. Both of blacks rooks are defending a pawn to stop taking it leading to checkmate. Black basically wants to do nothing (if they move the pawn on the seventh rank, may end up moving that rook back and foward), and perhaps wait for the oppotunity to sacrifice their queen for the rook without it leading to checkmate.
ldsrrs wrote:
It’s g2, yes, my Tippen. And P need to be at f2 to prevent checks. Without it, the game is draw! Probably Powre forgot to drow it. She and Novil probably didn’t expect such brilliant chess analysts as the two of us are! 🙂
Thx for FEN! (y)
For others folks: you can analyse the position on-line here:
https://www.365chess.com/analysis_board.php
Just click “import FEN” and paste “5rkq/3prp1p/5RpP/p1p5/5QP1/1B6/P5K1/8 b – – 0 1” (the position without f2 pawn) and “5rkq/3prp1p/5RpP/p1p5/5QP1/1B6/P4PK1/8 w – – 0 1” (the position with f2 pawn).
Stockfixh make some improvements in my analysis.
Andrew wrote:
WOW! Thx for it!! (Y)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the logic in panel 3 is flawed.
Logan can prevent the sequence described by Yuna by playing Qb2 for check instead of c4 as described.
By playing Rxf7, Yuna frees Logan’s queen to chase her King which I believe will either result in Logan winning or at least being up a rook (and a bunch of pawns) after a queen trade.
And, as I supposed, white pawn is at f2!!! I am a genius too!!! 🙂
Is it just me or is anyone else bothered by Yunas sportsmanship. She should not be talking to him, let alone advising moves and playing pokemon during the match is something i would consider bad form as well.
@ DTIBA: Or she’s climbing a ladder.
Yeah, I was thinking Yuna was suggesting he RESign. Thanks for the explanation guys.
@ MiK:
There’s a lot of bad sportsmanship here (like in the chess match):
Yuna isn’t focusing on the game, has used an electronic device in a forbidden manner (which would normally be instant disqualification, though normally that’d be because of potential for cheating) and is advising their opponent on their moves, which generally is poor form because chess is the only mind game you should be playing. This also involves talking in the playing area.
Logan shook the arbiter, picked up and moved the piece, and is playing on despite being so far down he doesn’t really have any chance of drawing (perhaps he hasn’t really realised it yet, though), appears to be barely paying any attention to the game itself (moving impulsively. apparently forgetting the main obvious threat he’s clearly been focusing on all game). He also is is crying and is yelling, when chess halls are expected to be silent. As this appears to not be a knockout (they’ve both played 7 games despite Logan having tied one, and this is chess, which is normally played in swiss or all-play-all) that is likely incredibly disruptive to everyone else in the same playing area (it’s normally considered poor form to even say check). Logan is clearly an experienced player, shown by only one draw in 7 games, an incredibly impressive feat at any level where you’d have this level of coverage.
I wonder if this is a setup to a comparison to comic 1246, Campaign Donation.
As an aside… they appear to be playing with manual clocks, and we cannot see the amount of time they each have left.
Yeah, at this point Logan should either RES or lash out and outright ATK Yuna.
He will either Nat 20 and pull a Bright Noa on her (“Not even my mother hit me!”) or get floored in the first 1.2 seconds of the altercation. Either way, he’s still screwed.
So, Yuna is:
– New enough to chess that she had to look up how the knight moved before the tournament
– A known technological genius
– Actively using electronic devices during the game
– Playing at the level of the best chess programs
I know what conclusion I’d draw from those facts.
Kovolta wrote:
Delays problem by 2 move till king manages to hide… also the first capture should be with a bishop and now when the rook moves from the defence.
the only chance right now he has is to attack the white queen with the rook he is holding… and chase it no matter what to get it off the line of the white rook. the best he can then hope is to loose 2-3 pawns in the process of his queen escaping out. at best balance.
Attacking the queen – only choice against human. Re4…
(and yes – sorry everyone I actually considered board flipped)
in this possition it might just upset Yuna.
@ Paeris Kiran:
never mind, does not work because of Qa8 after bishop captures rook captured rook captures… would be endage with queen vs. rook with a unstoppable pawn on h6 and white queen on h8.
extends a game a bit…
@ Paeris Kiran:
If you are suggesting the king can escape to h4 to hide behind the white queen and pawn, the queen can chase by moving to c3 then e1 all while maintaining check.
However, it sounds like there is supposed to be a white pawn on f2 – not visible in panel 1, but visible in panel 4 (although I think I see other white pieces in panel 4 that definitely aren’t on the board in panel 1) – making the whole thing moot, since check via Qb2 is not possible as the pawn would be in the way.
I like how Tuna has less and worse pieces on the board, but has much better positioning, so she will still win. A lot of amateur chess involves keeping more and better pieces, for late game domination, but she likely sacrificed good pieces so she could have better positioning.
Turns out it is pretty hard to render a chessboard in black&white.
Regarding the f2 pawn that is mysteriously missing from panel 1, you can see an f-pawn in panel 2 (either f2 or f3). But there, the black pawn at g6 is missing (the king at g8 and the pawn at g4 are visible). The perspective in panel 2 is down the e, f, g files, with just enough of the d file to glimpse the black pawn on d7.
oledakaajel wrote:
(btw the best move according to Stockfish is Rfe8 and you eventually play g3 (weird flex but ok) and/or attempt to trade the bishop at some point and then do some weird peice shuffling until the 50 move rule comes into effect. Mr. Hunter here is the kind of person who would play Qh8, so even if he finds this, he will still lose)
Note that even if this analysis takes the pawn at f2 into account, and even if Logan is able to find a drawing strategy for this game, he still loses the tournament. He has already drawn one game, next to Yuna’s perfect record.
Nimz wrote:
Given that the position is from the game where Stockfish lost to AlphaZero (AlphaZero is the program that was told little about chess beyond how the pony moves — just the rules, the rest is a lot of computing power spent on learning through self-play; Stockfish knows the classic games and uses the opening books), using Stockfish analysis here might be misleading…
i get the game but what is RES ? resign or give up?
I’m a terrible chess player but I love the serious chessgeek discussion going on here.
@ gregg:
It was brought up higher up, it is actually “Re6” (Rook to e6)
@ Michael:
Michael wrote:
However, despite the fact that in the general chess skill, even the world champion is not even equal to Stockfish, let alone AlphaZero, the position on the board is not particularly complicated.
I’m a player of modest strength, 2100 elo points (FIDE), but you saw above that I analyzed accurately. I even guessed that on f2 must be a white pawn.
for black player, just move furthest right rook forward, it baits bishop or queen, doesnt matter which; if bishop then move 2nd most right rook forward to bait out queen; long as queen moves tower can be eaten
@ raven0ak:
If foward 1 space “baiting the bishop”, bishop takes, d takes and then g5 leaves black with no play to get slowly crushed. This is the Re6 she suggests in the comic.
If foward any other number of spaces “to bait the queen” bishop takes pawn with check, rook takes, queen checks on the back rank and takes any rook that blocks checkmate.
Maybe the artist just drew the pieces in random locations? and its not an arrangement of pieces you can get out of using the pieces how they are positioned?
@ JD:
No, this position matches a known famous game, and Yuna’s analysis matches that game in that position. I think you’re misunderstanding our the comments if you think that’s what anyone meant.
@ Arbiter 101:
I see. in know how to play but never got into the history or strategies too much.
Kind of awkward here, being cited for this, when I was quoting what oledakaajel wrote (I just accidentally broke the blockquote tag when I tried to truncate the quote to the part I was replying to). For what it’s worth, I’d never heard of Stockfish or AlphaZero before reading the comments here. Also, I believe oledakaajel didn’t include the f2 pawn in the quoted Stockfish analysis.
Michael wrote:
The tidbit about how these programs are built, and that this position is from a game between them, makes this comic at least 10x funnier, so thanks!