Comments by PMark
I really enjoyed reading these two comments by our reader PMark. He didn’t just make some wild guesses about Viviana’s backstory, but put together a well thought out line of argument. Of course, this doesn’t mean that his conclusion is necessarily true.
DShadow: what? I thought more people would have realized by now that she´s the princess of Ileasaar and the Avaril actually belonged to her parents… Well I guess they do just not the ones who commented
PMark: You could very well be right. Consider:
(1) She is just known as “Viviana” — no last name. All the other key players have last names. Not her. Novil obviously wishes to either keep that a secret for a while, or she is like other royalty; few of them have last names, as well.
(2) She is rather young to inspire the loyalty and devotion in the rest of the Shadowdancers. Now if she were an Ileasaarian princess, that would help explain it.
(3) She has her own apartment in Shadow Keep, and it is rather spacious and very well furnished. That is just what you would expect of a princess.
(4) She seems quite comfortable hobnobbing with the rich and famous.On the other hand:
(A) She doesn’t seem to be that up on the Ileasaar lines of succession (SD-64). A royal princess would know such things.
(B) She claims to not have any say on whom would assume the throne (SD-64). A royal princess would have a say in the matter — especially one who is the leader of an underground movement such as the Shadowdancers.
(C) Assuming the two graves in SD-52 are her parents, they are awfully average tombstones. If Cania wished to minimize their memory, they would be in a couple of unmarked graves somewhere in Ileasaar — think the Bolsheviks and the Czar family. If they wished to honor them and thereby defuse some of the Ilaesarrian anger and resentment, they would be buried with more pomp and display worthy of a king and queen. Average tombstones for a King and Queen are an insult to their memory.
(D) She is currently attending a party with the rich, famous and well connected of Cania, and she is giving a false name. You have to assume that if she truly was an Ileasaarian Princess, there would be a good chance someone in the illustrious group might recognized her.
(E) SD-81 suggests that Ileasaarian resentment of Canian rule is still alive and well. Under those circumstances, you have to believe that the Canian authorities would be keeping a watchful eye on surviving members of the Illeasaarian royal family. Remember, these are the same guys who threw Lilith in jail on trumped-up charges. Yet Viviana comes and goes as she pleases.So let’s just say the jury is still out on the matter. The evidence could be interpreted either way.
safetypin: How long would the Ileasaaran (sp?) royalty have been underground? (And I don’t mean her parents’ graves.) If they’ve kept themselves secret for more than a generation, it’s possible no one actually knows Vivi’s the princess. But I favor her being not royalty. Remember, she wants to put someone else on the throne.
PMark: From the Glossary:
“Ileasaar – Province of Cania, was an independent country before being conquered by Cania a decade ago”
So they’ve been deposed for about ten years. That is hardly enough time to disappear into anonymity.Disposed royalty will still have major status. They always have. They always will. They are generally wealthy in their own right, and even if they are not they will still have their connections. They will still have celebrity. So you if you dispose of a ruling family, you have two choices — kill them all off like the Bolsheviks did, or allow them to continue to enjoy their status and risk an uprising.
In my opinion, the biggest telling against her being a princess are those graves. Why bring the bodies of a deposed king and queen back to the conquering country unless they are going to either humiliate them or honor them. You humiliate them by burying them in an unmarked grave so that their supporters can’t use their graves as a symbol. If you wish to honor them, you do so by erecting a monument, or at least a nice tomb. If they just placed them in an ordinary grave, the members of the family and their supporters would erect the monument, or at least do something more for them than just marking them with two common, ordinary, run-of-the-mill gravestones.
And if the graves are not those of her parents, then whose are they? Relatives, perhaps? Relatives of royalty are nobility, and they seldom lie in common graves, either.
No. I am inclined to think that her “Daddy” is buried in one of those graves, and he was not the king. So that precludes her from being a princess.
But then why would such a young person be the leader of the Shadowdancers if she was not of royal blood? It’s a good puzzle to be sure; which is one of the reasons I am enjoying Gaia so much.
Thank-you, Novil, for your kind words. I’m glad you enjoyed my analysis.
But then again, those comments are really a compliment to you. If Gaia wasn’t so well-written, plotted, and planned out, few people would bother with such an analysis. I know I wouldn’t.
🙂
I think it is entirely possible for her to be the princess. We after all don’t know how old she was and in the anime/manga series gundam wing no one knew that the 15 year old daughter of one of the ministers there was actually the Princess Royal of a pacifist kingdom destroyed 12 years before that. Nor did anyone recognize the 19 year old crown prince who felt he didn’t deserve the throne because he chose to live a life of a soldier in order to gain revenge for his murdered family, but then he wore a helmet to cover half his face so the most prominent family feature was invisible. But yeah, the sister was totally out in the open for anyone to see and no one knew. Safe her father and brother of course.
To be honest, I thought this was pretty obvious. Why else would she be so obsessed about the kingdom’s royal treasures? And as noted, she is rather young to have such respect from others. ^^
JaidynReiman wrote:
As I pointed out in the thread, it is a matter of Occam’s Razor which states that the simplest solution with the fewest number of complications is logically the most likely.
It is far easier to explain away the inconsistencies that arise from her being a commoner than to explain away the inconsistencies that arise from her being a princess.
For example, her being the leader of the Shadowdancers at such an early age does strongly suggest royal blood. But on the other hand, there are a number of instances throughout history where young people have been thrust into leadership primarily upon their merit. Viviana is a cracking good thief. She is a brilliant strategist. She has great charisma.
So her being the leader of the Shadowdancers is not proof positive that she is an Ileasaarian princess. It strongly supports that notion to be sure, but is not proof.
As for her “obsessing” on Ileasaar’s treasures, any underground movement whose goal is to regain sovereignty is going to “obsess” upon the symbols of that power sovereignty. It’s just a fact of human nature.
The daughter of a trusted loyal retainer in the King’s court? A childhood friend of that princess? Who happens to be some other female character that has already appeared in this comic?
She would be the leader for the same reason Tetra was the leader of the pirates in The WindWaker. She is the daughter of the original leader(s). That and she probably has the best all-around skill and knowledge of the ways of thievery, and she has female agility and flexibility to add to that, as well as some pretty gosh-darned good judgement, and all that makes for a pretty good thief leader. I have to admit, every time I see her in action, I think of her as an all-A student with a past life as a gymnast. As for the fancy apartment or whatever, it’s simple: she’s their leader, and where thieves’ guilds are involved, the leader usually gets the good stuff.
alternative thought: her biological father and her “daddy” aren’t the same person. If her real father *were* a king killed in a bloody coup when she was very young she might have a more familial fondness for whoever raised her after that. possibly someone important to the thieves guild, but in no way royal. Just my 2 bits
@ rpgarcher:
Excellent idea.
Here’s another. Viviana’s parents were innocent bystanders that were killed during the conquest of Ileasaar for no other reason than “they got in the way”. The perpetrators got away with it because, “Oh well, these things happen.”
Given the fact that the current king and his chief councilor don’t think twice about railroading an innocent girl if it’s politically convenient tells us that they wouldn’t be opposed to letting the murderers of Viv’s parents get away with it if it was politically convenient to do so.
Their bodies were brought to Cania for proper burial — the only decent thing to do — or maybe they were already in Cania when they were murdered. Either way, nothing was done to punish the guilty party or parties. It was all swept under the rug.
So Viviana grows up hating the Canian occupation of her homeland. She becomes part of a movement that works for Ileasaarian independence. However what she wants most is justice for the murder of her parents (SD-42) and punishing Delvor Garrot (SD-64) who either did the deed, or looked the other way when it was done. As for who rules Ileasaar after they gain independence, she could care less about. It won’t be her; that’s all she knows.
So all the pieces fit together nicely without her having to be an Ileasaarian princess.
So, here’s a thought: What if the graves ARE royalty?
You give a compelling reason as to why they would not be the King and Queen’s tombstones, but consider it from a different angle. Let’s say you’re a good friend of the King and Queen, like, say, the Captain of the Honor Guard, and your countries Capital, where the King and Queen are, is attacked by an enemy country. You escort your rulers out, but in the chaos something happens, and they are both fatally wounded. You take them as fast as you can to a healer you knew in your youth, perhaps as an average soldier, or perhaps when you were a child, but they die soon after reaching the healers little known cottage (drama reasons), leaving you with their child of an indeterminable age. (I haven’t read any of the history myself, and therefor cannot know. it is possible the Queen was pregnant, and died during childbirth, while the king was either already dead or fatally wounded and died just after the child was named. It is also possible that the child was between that age and 5 or so, depending on how much the author wants the kid to remember of the attack.) You want their child to be able to visit her parents graves, but you don’t want the enemy country to find out about it, so you bury them in unassuming graves. You promise to erect enormous monuments in their name once the throne has been reclaimed away from the usurpers, the enemy country.
Would this make logical sense?
@ Mage of Chaos:
Excellent,
Cania conquered Ileasaar a decade ago, so judging by present appearances and the ability to pass as Ilias’s fiancé, I would say she was likely at least twelve when that happened.
Apart from that, nothing you suggest is outside of the realm of possibility. That being the case, it still comes down to this:
*If Viviana is a princess, one has to jump through hoops to explain why her parents are buried in common graves.
*If Viviana is a commoner, then it’s no big deal for her parents to be buried in common graves.
Occam’s Razor.
That, of course, presumes that those graves ARE her parents’ — which we do not know for a fact. We are only assuming that they are.
Just to point out that Vivania’s last name was at one point revealed: someone pointed it out in the comments and Novil deleted it immediately, meaning that it almost definitely has a link to something in the future.
On a side note, in Shadowdancers 34, some drunk hints that Lilith is from Ileassar as well. I’m certain there is a link between Lilith and Vivania that we aren’t aware of…
Some very good points PMark. Have you studied literature by any chance?
@ PMark:
It is interesting, that you seem to lean towerd the idea of Vivian being a comoner (if I read the info between the lines right ^^;; ) because then it would be strang for her to have the respect and the followship she has at the shadowdancers, or at least whish she seems to have at such young age (in this respect, you assume her to be 22, I would be interested to read, why you think so, because I kind of thought her younger, more around 17 or 18. just from the fact how she looks and that we do not know anything about her, what would give us a timeline of some sorts)
Mage of Chaos’s train of thought is actualy an interesting one, or she could very well be a daughter of a loyal freand of the king or queen, perhaps the comander of the royal guard (which could no be represented in the shadowdancers) which had to go underground after the fall of Ileasaar, and the guard may have this respect for Vivian because of her no dead father and her inherited good skills…but who knows ^^;;
@ goldenrhino:
if it should be so, which would be interesting, at the moment not even Vivian is aware of it, as one can read that she is not interested in the fate of Lilith after she has done her job.
@ PMark:
Very interesting debate in the comments – kol hakavod PMark. I agree – hypothetically speaking, Viviana was at least 10 (possibly 12) by the time her parents (or whoever rests in those two graves) were killed. In this case, even if she were the princess, it’s possible people might not recognize her now, but the fact that NOBODY recognizes her -in any way (like don’t I know you?)- among the aristocratic elite points to her not being the princess, unless she has done something drastic to alter her appearance, such as color her hair (say she’s a natural redhead, for example). Perhaps Viviana was the daughter of the rebel leaders – and their deaths drove her and the entire rebel base – to soldiering on for 10 years. Perhaps these rebel leaders were in some way connected to the deposed royals, and Viviana was indeed a childhood friend of the real princess. But I have to debunk one line of reasoning: Viviana did not likely become the rebel leader merely because she was an excellent thief. Politics and internal squabbling don’t always result in the cream rising to the top – at such an age, she must have something else up her sleeve to explain her comrades’ deference to her.
@goldenrhino,
Yes, Lilith is from Oakdale, a village in Ileasaar (SD-39).
@Mr. Nabby,
Well, I haven’t exactly “studied” literature, but I have very fond of reading. Jane Austen is my favorite author.
@Someone’s Brain.
Yes, her leadership of the Shadowdancers at such an early age is most curious. If she were royalty, that would help explain it. But on the other hand, if she were leader because of their respect for her royal blood, wouldn’t they be more respectful of her title? Wouldn’t they — in the safety of their lair if nowhere else — be calling her “your highness”, “your grace”, or just plain “princess”? Yet we know that they don’t.
The point I’m trying to make is that having her be a princess just keeps making things more and more complicated. Don’t get me wrong. None of these objections are insurmountable — none at all. However to maintain the premise that she is of royal blood requires us to keep coming up with more and more explanations to explain away the little inconsistencies that keep arising if she is.
As for her age, it all depends upon how old the academy graduates are. She is, after all, the plausible financée to one of them. I don’t see them high school age. Would you trust a High School senior to administer the third largest estate in the country (RH-36/37) even if he was the top student in his class? (And Ilias was only Salutatorian (RH-35) remember. We assume that Lilith was the Valedictorian.) Now if the academy was the equivalent of a university degree, that’s a different story.
…AND they are old enough to be getting married. Yes, throughout history, couples have been getting married in their mid-teens. Even today, it is not unheard of to find teenage couples tying the knot. But Gaia seems to be following our norms in most cases more than historical ones, so I suspect their customary age of getting married would be similar to ours.
So all in all, I see the grads being in their early to mid twenties more than their mid to late teens.
@Spas:
I couldn’t agree more. If she was “just” a superior thief, she needs to be thieving, not leading. However, her being a superior, natural born leader makes it easier to accept.
All indications point to her being a superior leader. Her well-thought out plans invariably work (SD-63). (Rush jobs are the exception (SD-64).) She is bold and charismatic. She is a dynamite thief. She isn’t above assigning herself the toughest jobs. She blends in well with all layers of society. She is a master at persuasion.
Theirs is a dangerous occupation. I don’t see them making someone their undisputed leader on thieving skills alone, nor on their linage. Would you risk your life and freedom trying to steal some nice bauble just because some fancy-schmancy princess told you to do so? If Viviana was leader by virtue of her blood, I would expect her to be the titular leader more than the actual one, but anyone can see that she is the one who is truly in charge.
So as I see it, the biggest unanswered question so far in the strip is how did Viviana become the leader of the ShadowDancers. I can’t wait for Novil to fill us in. 🙂
spas wrote:
Exactly. Viviana is extremely careful about being recognized. Every time we see her, she is wearing a different outfit. She’s quite the clothes horse! RH-13, SD-24, SD-42, SD-49, SD-50, SD-51, SD-57, SD-66, SD-76 and SD-80 all show different outfits. I don’t see a duplicate in the lot. In contrast to her, nobody else seems to change clothes unless they are in disguise (Alissa and Ilias in SD-21).
SD-92 (not available here at S&W yet but available over on MM — careful, spoiler alert!) shows some of the lengths she’s willing to go to to avoid being recognized. Yet here we have her going to a party of the aristocratic elite where she stands a good chance of running into people who were on close intimate terms with the former Ileasaari Royal Family, and she’s dressed in a manner that is almost certain to attract attention (SD-80). Her light colored gown sticks out from all the darker colors everyone else is wearing, and it is quite flattering to her figure.
(That’s saying something in a comic that advertises itself as having female characters who are properly dressed. 🙂 )
Would she have dressed like that if she thought there was a chance of being recognized by someone in that illustrious group as being a princess? I think not.
So we have yet another inconsistency to explain away if she is of royal blood.
Another point: we don’t know much about the graves Viviana was visiting or the people they represent. We don’t know whether or not the names on the tombstones are the true names of those people. We don’t even know if there are actually bodies buried there. They could just be physical markers for some sort of purpose for the Shadowdancers. Viviana could have made the graves since she could not retrieve the bodies or make graves herself. Different people grieve differently, so there’s no telling what those graves really are at this point.
@ PMark:
What if they aren’t her parents? I always thought they were fellow shadowdancers.
For the record, I think that Viviana is definitely nobility of some kind, but which type is not yet revealed. I’m almost positive of it, in fact; she does not carry herself as a normal commoner would, so there must be SOME noble blood running through her veins.
If she is well and true, proper *royalty*, related to the deposed king/queen, then we know for a fact that there isn’t a CLEAR successor lined up. This implies either that she’s not a direct descendant (niece being a likely candidate in this case), OR that there are multiple direct descendants and which is most eligible is not clearly established.
In either case, though, the graves in question I don’t find to be that important. Even if she IS a direct descendant of the crown, then it is not only possible, but PROBABLE that she had guardians looking over her like a daughter. (Particularly true if there were multiple children, and she wasn’t high on the line of succession. If you have many children, then the younger children are not that likely to have much direct interaction with their parents, and are going to likely have surrogates that look over them and raise them.) And those are the type of people you most assuredly could have common graves for.
Then there are other options, too. You may not make such humble graves for a king/queen, but what about a cousin of them? They’d be royalty, sure, but not THE royalty. Plenty of royalty that never will take the crown will die, particularly since if you think about real-life royalty, there are a TON of people who have royal blood in them. This is doubly-true if she’s not royalty, but is nobility.
Overall, I’d have to say that her being a princess does in fact seem a bit unlikely, since she doesn’t seem to carry herself as being the rightful heir to the crown. However, I ALSO don’t think that she’s a commoner, since there’s simply too much evidence pointing away from that. The most likely options, therefore, are indirect-royalty and nobility. Which it actually is, we’ll have to wait and see.