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Currently on hiatus :-(
 S&W in German/auf DeutschGaia (my fantasy comic) Scarlet (my science fantasy comic) |
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![[0513] Wrong Direction](/comics/2013-09-23-0513-wrong-direction.png "[0513] Wrong Direction")
Check out the great fantasy/sci-fi comic Gunnerkrigg Court by Tom Siddell if you want to see more of Sir James Eglamore!
- Michelle: They’re totally dreamy, huh?
- Zoey: Yeah…
- Michelle: You’re looking in the wrong direction.
- Zoey: Oh, sorry. I was just lost in thought.
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Sandra and Woo by Oliver Knörzer is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. See the About page for details.
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I’d say there’s a fifty-fifty chance that she’s lesbian. I find myself staring at… Unusual choices all the time, without realizing it.
@ pip25:
Actually, pip, given that unlike race, sexual orientation is not strictly hereditary, such a small percentage still includes a higher likelihood that it will be evenly distributed within all populations. Even populations that do not have much (or any) diversity is likely to have that 1-5% incidence that you mentioned. If you never knew any gay/lesbian people in your school, chances were that (as in this case) they were just closeted. As non-heterosexuality becomes more broadly accepted, small schools will likely see higher instances of at least one openly homosexual person making your real-life token gay kid in these non-diverse areas a reality.
Webcomic Comment Pages are not supposed to be used for anything other than comments on the webcomic! (that’s what twitter is for >;-> ) So please get back to the fight! Who do you think will win, Mr. Eglamore the Dragon Slayer, or “Trained his whole life” Cloud?
I’m rooting for Cloud.
About Zoey: … interesting… will Michelle call her out on this, return sentiments soon, or just continue to fawn over Cloud and Mr. Eglamore?
@ wanderingbishop:
Point taken.
I strongly believe truth lies between open-mindedness and strong skepticism.
Eglamore shows up and up pops a lesbian… he’s a carrier!!!
@ xpacetrue:
IT all depends on your statistics really, and the only fault I can find in your stats is the idea of a town of 9000 having 2500 primary (1-6) school students. Given that the average child to adult ratio is about 2:1.4 (2 adults for every 1.4 children) assuming the 0.4 of the children are below school age (just to make the math simpler it’s really close enough if you check the latest census numbers) That gives us 2 adults(and non school aged child) for every 1 school aged child. Leaving us with a population of 3000 school aged children. Using your figure of an age variance of 1 year either way that gives us aan approximate population of 25% of the children. Cut that in half to exculde boys (assuming Zoey is lesbian and not bisexual) we are left with a population of 12.5% of the children of appropriate age and sex now this gives us a population of 375 to draw from in the town. Now this pairs down to (using you 1-6% assumption of the population of GLBT) 3.75-22.5 possible suitors. This is further paired down when you consider of the GLBT opoulation only 1 of the four (The lesbian, again assuming Zoey is lesbian and not bisexual) is desireable for her. This leaves a possible population of suitors ranging from 0.9375 people (essentially 1) to 5.625 (essentially 6) possible suitors. Now with a selection of possible suitors (in a town of 9000) of appropriate age, sex, and sexual orientation being from 1-6 people, it is EXTREMELY unlikely she would find “The One” special person to fall in love with, given the observational bias factor, ie “She’s too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, wrong colour hair, wrong colour eyes, etc etc” That ALL youth use to eliminate possible suitors. Since there are no statistics on the observational bias preferences of 12 lesbians (let alone 12 year old cartoon lesbians) it would be impossible from a statistics vantage to say what size of population would need to be in order to give poor Zoey a fighting chance at romance. My guess would be about 45 to 50 thousand. Which would raise the odes considerably without further degrading them vis-a-vis population density.
Just sayin’…..
@ Valkeiper2012:
Well done. I’m so glad you posted this, and you did it the right way. This too, will probably end up being hidden, but oh well. You are very right. And to whoever said it, just because it’s reality, doesn’t mean it’s right. No matter what, it’s sin. It’s like accepting a murderer, or telling your child you understand him and don’t care if he is a lair. We don’t allow certain sins and misbehavior, why this? It is not a born quality, you can change how you see people. That’s just a way of hiding the (real) reality of what it is:Sin, disorder, and lawlessness.
Thanks for posting this.
@ Other Anon:
Well, I used to be as ‘open-minded’ as the next guy.
Then i had to deliver a load (I was a trucker) to New York city. I got a chance to visit a gallery to see what is regarded as ‘art’ today. I literally vomited into a waste container while viewing the filth displayed.
If that was the only time, it would have been fine. Unfortunately, I found it in almost all the big cities and most of the ‘not-so-big’ cities.
I am one of those who doesn’t understand racism (On purpose) and hope I never do, but prove to me you deserve no respect and I will give you none.
That poor girl… There is absolutely nothing wrong with what she is feeling. And she is going to take so much crap for it throughout her life… … She’s being raised in a comparatively non-judgmental generation though. Hopefully that will help.
@ Ter:
That’s most certainly true. In fact, I believe I know a couple of people in my somewhat limited circle of friends and close acquaintances who are gay (although they are not very open about it). Most classes in school have a good chance of having at least one homosexual student, yes.
The thing is, as others also said, you have around 20 people in a class. How many of those are actual characters with some relevance to a story like Sandra and Woo? Let’s see, around 6? My point was that it has become a trend to include a gay/lesbian character into this much smaller circle of important people. I’m not saying that’s a good or a bad thing in and of itself, but similarly to your usual male action flick protagonist, the “look how open-minded this story is” homosexual character brings a twist to the story that can become stale when overused.
Valkeiper2012 wrote:
You’re comparing modern art, which is generally really stupid and abstract except in a few cases, to homosexuality?
At first I thought you were just a little homophobic, and was only going to touch on how the only reason such characters are becoming a popular trend is because homosexuality is becoming, luckily, more accepted, and that eventually authors and artists run out of character types, that it’s not a bandwagon.
With this comment, I see what you’re really doing is exaggerating the stupid. Modern art is not “filth”, even if it is stupid, and it will not make you vomit. Furthermore, modern art is not a parallel to social norms. As you said yourself, “prove to me you deserve no respect and I will give you none”; for having compared two completely unrelated and pointless things like that, you will receive none of mine here today until you can explain why you found art so disgusting and why that’s even remotely related to the topic of homosexuality in comics and literature.
Seqvus wrote:
He’s not Asian
well, being the hopeless romantic that I am, I can honestly say I would prefer to not have the possibility of an unrequited lesbian crush dealt with, because it has the potential for so much sadness and heartache. I’m also,I must admit, a bit of a prude when it comes to homosexuality, in spite of being a supporter of human rights for everyone, regardless of what part of the human spectrum they fill. Still,it is not my (or any of us really) place to say what should or should not be done. S&W is not my comic, I am just one of those lucky enough to come along for the ride. All I can do is ask that Oliver treads careful on the topic with his writing, as he has done with the other topics of religion and the still blossoming emotions and desires of youth.
@ NateTheGreat:
And how exactly is homosexuality comparable to murder?
I wouldn’t mind finding a bit more out about Zoey.
OMG people get a grip.
Before rampaging about howe likely it is for zoey to be Lesbian or even bisexual just wait for developement.
It might be trend but what about it? It always depends on how its carried out: Do you do it BECAUSE it’s a trend or do you do it because it just fits the character and story line?
Sandra and Woo untill now was always well written and did not try to get love by doing stuff that is trendy,or did they? So why assume it is done because it’s a trend? I don’t get that.
So I’m really curious about this ^^
The webserver running sandraandwoo.com had a serious storage malfunction and was offline for a couple of hours because of it. All your comments made after Tuesday, 24 September 2013, 01:30 CET, are gone. My latest database backup is exactly two hours older so there is nothing I can do to bring them back. I think my webhost Hosteurope handled the issue well. A technician had a look at the defect server although it’s 1 o’clock after midnight here in Germany.
@ Neospector:
you want an example? (and this is the least offensive)
A close-up photograph of one man p***ing into another man’s mouth.
@ Novil:
Is good to know that you were aware of this issue. Especially with this thread which has caused some controversy.
My comment was not that important, but still ^_^
Valkeiper2012 wrote:
I don’t know where you went to see that, but it certainly wasn’t a normal art gallery that represents what many people view. I suspect that, if you even went to a legitimate art gallery at all, it represents a very small minority of artists.
I’ll direct you to someone who graduated the highschool I go to a few years ago. Does this look like “filth” to you?
But enough with the discussion of art. The main point was that you’re overreacting. “Art” isn’t filth, and, more importantly, the idea of homosexual characters being a “fad” is and outright fabrication. It’s also unimportant; characters are characters, they are meant to be unique in personality and mind, in name and in power. There are, however, a limited number of powers, personalities, mental states, and names to go through. Thus, you get the many variations (brainiac characters with different gender, for example, or a “plotting” megane character as opposed to an “intelligent” megane character) duplicates across stories; it’s not that authors and artists are copying others, it’s that two people happened to think of the same type of person. There’s no real reason to believe otherwise, nor any reason why believing otherwise should cause some sort of strife in your life.
I’d also like to apologize to people in general for continuing the argument at this point. I’ve made my point clear and I don’t need to repeat it any more.
Is there any chance we can all just take Zoey’s reply in the last panel at face value? At least until we have more significant evidence one way or the other? 🙂
I got downvoted? Keep in mind that some characters have openly said that they’re more than willing to be fully active.
I finally read through all the comic strips and I’m certainly glad about it. The problem is that I now feel like I missed something according to Zoey.
So our little Zoey wants to get more familiar with Michelle’s tonsils… I can totally get behind that! =D _\\\\
@ illeatyourself:
It’s michelle. Click her name in the tag cloud (no, not the tag ‘cloud’ :P) to see her earlier appearances.
Also, damn she looks cute in today’s strip. And earlier color strips indicate she has the same haircolor as me too xD
This topic seems to lately be attacking me from all sides, including mirror o.O this might have something to do with a fact that I only recently started reading webcomics at all… never mind.
Anyway, I’m glad to see a glimpse of a new storyline. If Zoey’s “bitchy” characterization isn’t thrown out of the window for the sake of moral, it’s going to be fun…. on the other hand, all I can remember about Zoey’s interaction with the main cast is about Larisa being mean, not the other way round… huh. Let’s see how this works out.
@ Antiyonder:
CAUTION! RIGHT WING EXTREMIST RANT AHEAD! All left wing people please don’t read or comment, I don’t care about the S#$% you want to say about me, my belief, or my religion. “Open mined acceptors” welcome.
I believe when comparing Murder to Homosexuality what the point is this: where does it stop? When will we as a people put our foot down and say “This is wrong?” It doesn’t happen. The country will slowly continue down this path until we have brothels in every city and everything becomes so sinful that those who don’t want to live in such a sinful place, take the colonial people for example (it wasn’t THE reason they left England but it was a reason), will try to escape from it and create a society that is “cleansed” of all things sinful: drinking, gambling, whoring, homosexuality, etc.
Compare what they did to what we do today and you will think of it as close minded but what you cannot understand is that our religion convinces us that Homosexuality is an act against God’s natural order and a sinful pollution to the beauty that he has created. You see sex as a fun activity to do with whoever you please and whatever else you will think, we see it as only a means of reproduction and a bond strengthener between a husband and a wife. Arguing against us with the purpose of making us believe Homosexuality is an acceptable activity is a fight you will not win because for us it’s either side with you or side with God.
I try to be loving to all people of all nations no matter who they are or what they have done. “love the sinner hate the sin.” But I cannot accept actions that go against what my God is.
In the end though I believe the world is full of sin and no matter what you do it will always be bad.
P.S. Just because I’m a God believer doesn’t mean you automatically give me a thumbs down, Like you say, be accepting of everyone. If you are, and you do, I’ll just laugh at your hypocrisy.
Just finished reading what is available for Gunnerkrig court. First comment- excellent comic. Second comment – he’s holding back,but then so is Cloud. Third comment – could the raccoon goddess be in the same pantheon as Coyote? They have similar body markings. Great comic and I look forward to more.
Goodness…! That’s not something I would have expected from Zoey. ^^
@ Undergound Pyro:
I believe when comparing Murder to Homosexuality what the point is this: where does it stop? When will we as a people put our foot down and say “This is wrong?”
Murdering someone means that you don’t respect the other person’s right to live and do so against their consent.
Homosexuality relationships on the other hand tend to be a thing of consent between two people.
In short, I can respect the latter because their actions don’t infringe on the freedom of another, while the former tends to disrespect someone else’s freedom.
1a. So tell me again how homosexuality is harmful. And try to come up with a reason that lacks double standards.
For example, the whole “it’s unnatural” is bull. If that’s the case then why aren’t fashion products treated with the same distain? I mean God gave you the body he did for a reason and you disrespect him by trying to change it through unnatural means.
1b. Heck, you talk about how if we accept homoseuxality as the norm then it’s a slippery slope for accepting other things. Well that works both ways. Should we ban coffee and tea because Mormons don’t approve of them?
Or for that matter, how about a ban on holidays because of Jehovah’s Witnesses who don’t believe in them. Banning something on religious grounds invites just as much of a slippery slope.
“Like you say, be accepting of everyone. If you are, and you do, I’ll just laugh at your hypocrisy.”
If you want acceptance, you have to give it as well. And since you refuse to do that, I don’t have to accept your bigotry.
@ Valkeiper2012:
There is also such a thing as having your mind so closed to new ideas that you never learn anything and come across as a horrible person.
…HOW DID I NOT SEE THIS COMING!?!?!?
*checks every comic strip with Zoey in it…gaydar doesn’t go off*
After reading some of the comments on here, I seriously am trying to refrain myself from punching straight through my PC screen. Here comes the rant from the german, agnostic, lutheran guy.
Seriously, you guys are trying to justify your hatefulness towards other sexual preferences with your religion. That’s not only absolute bullshit, that also is extremely shitty of you guys, using your religion as an excuse. Seriously, sin here, sin there, sin sin sin sin sin… you aaaaaalways talk about sin. Hello, you guys are aware that practically ANYTHING is a sin, yet you don’t say anything?! Pleasure of any kind is a sin, expressing your opinion, freedom itself, too etc etc. And don’t deny it, the bible says so, many many times. And do you know what the bible says, too? That slavery is a natural condition. I don’t think any of you think so. Denying that slavery is a natural condition is a sin too, you know? In that case, the entire american civil war was one big sin. Yet I don’t see you complaining about that.
Let’s also not forget that one nice thing. Jesus died for our sins. All of them. I repeat, ALL OF THEM. Also, Homosexuality is nothing, compared to many, MANY other sins that have been told of in the bible. Homosexuality barely even makes any appearances in the bible, in comparison to many other sins. So why are you against it so much? You all use the leviticus-chapter to justify your hate, but hey, think about it, the levitcus chapter isn’t even necessary for christians. Jesus openly was against the leviticus chapter, you know, that’s not a secret. He openly preached against many things that were said in it, just compare his preachings to the leviticus chapter, you will see how these things contradict each other. Not to mention that it’s actually only a bunch of laws, made by a jewish king, made for jewish people, wich only has been put in the bible to remember our roots. We aren’t jewish, at least not anymore, are we? So why do we care? it’s not our duty to maintain it anymore. Also, let’s not forget that the leviticus chapter said that we should throw stones at our children until they die if they’re disobidient, or that tatoos are a sin, too. I don’t see you complaining that we don’t kill our children with stones as punishment, or that people are having tatoos. To be accurate, that would makes you sinners, even more.
Oh any by the way, the thing about that leviticus phrase is… that it isn’t even specifically against homosexuality itself. It only says that “you should’t lie with a man as you would with a woman”. A proper translation into today’s language would be… “don’t threat a man like a woman”. And considering how women were treated as property back then, it says that you shouldn’t see men as your property. Aaaaaalso, it practically is only speaking about homosexuality as a CERIMONIAL THING, not as a private thing.
Not only that there’s scientific fact that homosexuality is actually something natural, like the placement of the prostate, how it’s processed inside your cerebellum, where your NATURAL INSTINCTS are processed. But, of course, you guys will dismiss it, i am sure of it. You americans always think of science and facts as something lesser than your religion, even when your religion isn’t even provable, while science is.
Oh, and let’s not forget that fact that the pope said that he DOESN’T THINK THAT HOMOSEXUALS SHOULD BE JUDGED BY HIM. Yeah sure you guys probably aren’t catholic and probably are baptists and all that shit blah blah blah, but you can’t deny that the head of the OLDEST, CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN EXISTENCE thinks that way, and that this has quite some inpact. Not to mention that you won’t go to hell for every single sin you’ve commited, that would be bullshit, everyone is a sinner. Oh, and let’s remember that, in the bible, god has been shown to be able to change his mind about a load of things, sometimes even without telling anyone. So why exactly wouldn’t he be able to change his mind about something as trivial as homosexuality?
And I could go on and on for hours and hours, but I will just keep it with this, becase this most certainly is enough angryness from me.
@Dimensional13: See, as a Christian myself, I feel that some of these religious folks merely claim it’s a sin so that they don’t have to own up to being bigoted.
I mean ask them to provide a non-religious reason that lacks any double standards and you get nothing.
My prediction for Zoey:
The fact that she’s gay will be occasionally hinted at for a while, until one of the main characters (probably Sandra) finds out that she likes women.
This will lead to a full-out confrontation, most likely where she gets mad, winds up crying, and admitting that she’s not sure about her sexuality.
Afterwards, she and Sandra will become friends.
She will gradually become a main character in the comic.
Woo will generally dislike her (similar to how he did with Cloud, VERY early on), because she’s been kinda’ meh about Raccoons.
Cloud will likely become more or less an ‘extended friend’, possibly sharing a comic or two where they talk about how dreamy Sandra is without realizing it.
Larisa and her will still have bickering matches, but now in more of a good humor.
She’ll go from considering Sandra as ‘a crazy Coon lady’ to one of her best friends, who she feels comfortable confiding in.
Her character will gradually go from ‘snarky queen bee’ to ‘Kind of stuck-up, but genuinely becoming a better person. And possibly a bit of a Tsundere’. Not sure about that last one, though. It’s more of a stab in the dark.
Anyway, that’s just my prediction. If I’m right, I’m going to spend a little bit shouting ‘CALLED IT’.
While I am here. I have seen people who are actually were so “open minded” that you could say their brains fell out. However, that is pseudo open mindedness.
I am considered an open minded person, so let me explain the process using a real life example of mine. When I was younger, one of my beliefs was that homosexuality was a choice. As I grew up I ended up in fairly tight quarters with several of the gay kids in school. Now one of my other core beliefs is that all people regardless of race, social status and all of that jazz are people and should be treated as such. I got to know the gay kids and their personal struggles and from the new things I had learned and considered, my mind was changed to homosexuality not being a choice.
Another time though, a girl tried to convince me that casual sex is okay. Though I listened to what she said her view point did not match with what I perceive of the world. Therefore, my mind was not changed.
These are two clear cut examples from the top of my head. I can produce more nuanced ones if needed.
True open mindeness is being willing to consider others points of view and their reasoning. And if their argument and reasons are valid with what you now know to change your stance. It is not to accept everything as permissible and okay, which seems to be the norm of its usage these days. And interestingly enough, I have often found that those who wave it’s banner the widest tend to be the least possessed of it.
That being said, I am trying to produce a fiction novel. Most first time authors write several before they get one published. In my three attempts I have had about 50 characters conected to the narrative and one of them did in fact develope gay. Sometimes as a writer, dealing with characters is like dealing with real people.
And with what I know about Novil and Powree, they aren’t really bandwagon folks. This is likely natural character developement.
@ anon:
Yeah, well, but aren’t you calling judgement upon yourself now? That might end up with everybody sguck in an infinote loop of judgement.
Seriously, if someone is disgusted by the thought of something that is, as you said before, not really atrractive without sexual arousement factoring in, they should be allowed to express that feeling. The trouble with feelings is that those little bastards don’t care one bit about logic or ethics and get stronger the more you try to ignore them, so the only way to deal with them is to allow them to happen. Very often exactly that acceptance and the freedom to express a feeling is what lets it subside.
And that’s actually all he did. He did not judge, he didn’t claim anything about homosexuality to be wrong, he just expressed his disgust that you clearly stated to be just natural and totally ok (cue Jim’s dad).
Ya know, if someone tells me he dislikes or even hates xyz, i don’t scold, but rather inquire why and show some understanding. Chances are good that person experienced it way too little. Sow tolerance if you want it to grow. Intolerance towards intolerance is a nice idea on the paper, but if you follow that concept in real life, you’re being intolerant to people.
@ Neospector:
Actually, he didn’t compare trashy art to homosexuality. That’s just what you made of it. He used it as an example for mislead open-mindedness.
Honestly, if all those open-minded people were open-minded enough to actually read a comment before judging it, life would be so much easier on the interweb…
P. S. I totally disagree with anybody calling any personal preference “sin”, “evil”, “irresponsible” or “wrong”, just to be clear.
@ Valkeiper2012:
“So open minded that your brain can fall out”… is that what happened to you?
While …@ Skunk: …The other does not! 😀
@ pip25:
I’m Not a Fan of Tokenism, but it at least makes the People aware of the Existence of Minorities, & may even provide a Decent, Non-stereotypical representation of them for the Consumers of Media.
@ NateTheGreat:
Not sure if Serious, or just Satire.
DJ Mouthwash wrote:
So I was happily reading some comic strips in a webpage when this one came out. I clicked on it, firguring it would be a cute lesby story. I wanted to see the whole deal and story between Michelle and Zoey.
Had to go back yesterday to allude if this has been bla bla bla until 4:00 am.
I am glad to say I don’t regret it. 🙂
PS: Fuck you for seeing into MY future.
@ Valkeiper2012:
Honestly, I feel this way too- the amount of gay relationships that are sensationalized is disappointing.
There are a lot of relationships that are not being explored that people have to navigate through today (for example; children with an estranged parent, people that were enemies learning to be friends or vice versa, or having an adopted member of the family or friends and family of those with learning disabilities to name a small amount).
But I really do miss the brotherhood/ sisterhood that characters used to be able to have without everyone suddenly deciding they want each other, which because of its sexual nature (sexual love, mind), the innocence of honestly caring for another person is polluted by.
It seems like platonic love of any kind is unfashionable, or if not a matter of trend, at least no longer held in high regard?
The flaming of this comment by other readers is unfortunate, but the person commenting did use the word ‘disgust’, which comes off harshly. (and it’s never a good idea to predict a negative reaction which of course will net one) However, if it’s that person’s opinion, and a lot of people here are saying ‘don’t pass judgement on gay relationships’, well aren’t some people passing judgement on this person too?
And while I understand that the goal of the writer is not to trivialize the relationship being represented, that’s the impact it has when it starts appearing everywhere.
I’ll go a step further too and say that there is a romantic relationship between the main characters of most comics, and that in and of itself overshadows the possibility of telling a more challenging story of the many kinds of relationships people can have- which I realize is a complete digression.
B-but thats forbidden love!
I ships it <3
@ NateTheGreat:
All sex is a sin. Nate, I should remind you your name is akin to a name of one of a same-sex couple in Tànàc. But you rely on mistranslated lines about prostitutes.
http://www.quora.com/Did-Jesus-think-he-was-being-crucified-to-save-mankind-Did-he-think-he-was-saving-mankind-from-sin/answer/Autymn-Castleton
@ Dimensional13:
Not everyone is a sinner. Three or four passages say the blind and nonwitnesses had not sinned, so were not sinners, to include everyone after him. Romans establishes the moral relativism of law and sin. The new covenant is proscribed by one of the 12 commandments for the expiry of sin in a house after 4 or 5 generations. Also, we never were Jewish and this book was never relevant to the world.
The Lev statute was not about treatment of a sex; it was censored the word mishcàb which was the gerund substantive lying for a lair, couch, or bed of a woman, here a hooker.
@Novil, do you get High School USA?
There’s a typo in the tags, something like that can be FATAL! Especially when searching for certain characters.