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Currently on hiatus :-(
 S&W in German/auf DeutschGaia (my fantasy comic) Scarlet (my science fantasy comic) |
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![[0598] Toilet Humor](/comics/2014-07-14-0598-toilet-humor.png "[0598] Toilet Humor")
- Sign: CLOSED
- Cloud: Closed?
- Dorothy Cambridge: Yep! I’ve ordered the closure of all boy’s rooms!
- Cloud: WHAT!?
- Dorothy Cambridge: I can’t believe that there are still public institutions in which boys are allowed to expose their privates just inches away from members of the better sex!
- Dorothy Cambridge: It’s high time to put an end to these repulsive activities!
- Poster: REAL MEN DON’T PEE!
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Sandra and Woo by Oliver Knörzer is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License. See the About page for details.
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I thought she said penises don’t exist…how can they be exposed?
@ Mew:
She’s likely just too dumb to see the contradiction.
@ Avian Mosquito:
Ah, yes. I can see where that would be a concern. Until a few minutes ago, I faced much the same problem, albeit more from the Redheaded Wife rather than a little one. Best I can tell you in that case, is tonight before you head off to bed, set a thermos cooler of ice water next to the bed, within easy reach, and a tumbler/glass on the nightstand. Quick, accessible, and cold water within easy reach. It doesn’t do anything to help your current situation, to be sure, but as they say, “Hindsight is 20/20”.
@Avian Mosquito
@Publius
Hi guys. I’d like to refer you to my wall of text post from the previous comic strip. Second page, down towards the bottom. Can’t miss it.
I understand to a limited degree where both of you are coming from, I even agree with your stances to a point. I also understand somewhat where the rest of the comments section posters are coming from. While it can be fun and satisfying to argue and put people who make posts you don’t like in their place, it has the feel of forum-warrioring.
There is something to be said for “doing the right thing” and pointing out fallacies and misconceptions. There is also something to be said for giving people the chance to figure these out for themselves. There is no such thing as changing another person’s mind. You can persuade, use all the tools in your didactic arsenal. You can bring the weight of the altar of ration and logic to bear on your comments. But the other person ultimately has control over their next course of action, their next thought. If you successfully win them over to your side, you have won nothing, they have chosen to agree with you and the win is still theirs.
I personally realize this with a smile even as I type it because all the above words are doing the exact same thing I am pointing out to you. Which is why I will move towards my preferred method of discussion. “Why?” I have always found questions to be so much more effective. You will find that people will either force themselves to think and reflect, or they will refuse to answer. In either case, it feels much less argumentative, much less hostile, much more accommodating.
Generally I’ve found that most people react to stimuli similar to this comic’s story arc in just that fashion – reactionary. Inflammatory caricatures/statements/etc. tend to polarize people into that wonderful dichotomous distinction of “us” and “them.” It is the nature of our thought patterns to distinguish what is different and what is same. It makes cognitive functioning easier, more reflexive, allowing our brains to utilize their precious few resources elsewhere.
I prefer to use my limited resources on trying to understand where people with vastly different beliefs come from. The stronger their conviction, the more “why” questions I ask.
Why did the author choose this arc? Why do people choose or choose not to post in the comments section? Why do people criticize the author for their choice of arc? Why do still yet other people criticize those aforementioned posters? Why am I choosing to post a second comment for just the second time? Why am I choosing this arc to finally begin posting?
All valid and equally interesting questions. For my sake, I’m fascinated to learn the answers to the questions that don’t pertain to me. I’m very much like a tinkerer, I want to deconstruct patterns of behavior and thoughts down to their bare bedrock and reconstruct them again, just to see how and why they work. (Yes legos were and still are my favorite toy in the world.) I think that’s why I like this particular arc so much. You are much closer to the true way a person thinks and how that thought governs their actions when they are pushed to extremes.
So after this whole pointless diatribe, my simple question to the two of you: “why?”
@ Helz’Bayne:
That is perfect.
@ ░▒▓█│Walkman│█▓▒░: Feminist? She’s more of a Feminazi.
@ Soc:
You’re completely missing the point. Points, actually. The points of debate are:
1. To persuade neutral parties observing the debate (NOT your opponent, they’re too set in to change if the debate is occurring) by presenting your best argument against the argument of your opponent.
2. To provoke a response from the debated party, learning more about their position, their motives and themselves.
Both are ALWAYS valuable, and both are responsible for social progress. Social progress will never occur without debate. EVER. Under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. People won’t figure out they’re wrong without an outside perspective, and are liable to just fall in with whatever group is around them. A lack of debate leads to nothing but stagnation and decay, and that’s exactly what you’re promoting. A debate-free world, where nobody’s views are ever challenged, where the harshest indictment is the question “why”, which is quickly answered with no introspection whatsoever even if there’s NO basis to the belief of the queried party. I absolutely despise people like you who don’t, and due to their own idiotic obstinance likely never will, understand the value they give to debates. People like you try drag all social progress to a screeching halt by halting the debates from which progress spawns, and I will not tolerate it.
@ Publius:
I’m jealous. You have a red-headed wife. I have a red-headed EX-wife. Not nearly as good.
Feminism jumped the shark a long time ago. Now it’s a collection of extreme misandrists, Leftists / Communists, and all-round haters. That being said, I’m not a fan of this arc. It’s sophomoric and banal to the extreme. I like Sandra and Woo, but sometimes the writing really devolves, and this is one such time IMO.
@ TonksM:
You, my friend, have just declared the thoughts of every Harry Potter fan who reads this comic. You win the internet.
Do what she says, Cloud… and use the women’s restroom. If she thinks equality means pulling out your dick in a women’s restroom, then show her what that means.
@ Hyperstar96:
1. She’s not after equality.
2. She doesn’t want him using the girl’s bathroom either.
3. That actually wouldn’t be a bad thing at all, in fact I was pointing out the co-ed option is vastly superior anyway on the previous page.
@ Soc:
From what I can tell, what you call “Persuasion” and what I call “Changing somebody’s mind”, are despite different descriptor terms, the same concept. I do not, nor have I ever wished to, force someone to change their opinion. That is the realm of despots and fascists. Nor do I wish to do what I have increasingly seen from the Third-wave feminists and attempt to shame someone into acquiescing to my point of view. This goes back into my usual calm and collected approach to controversial political subjects. When one side is ranting and raving, as you saw Miss Binx in one of my former comments above, and yet another party is calmly but steadfastly dissenting, people often begin to question why that dissent exists in the first place. Like you mentioned, the central pillar to that change in view is the “Why?”, except my approach is more to get people to ask that question themselves, rather than to ask it for them. Answers discovered for oneself are often the best lessons, and if I can guide someone into finding the answers to their questions, all the better. If my view is faulty, I would expect them to point out the conflict, just as I would do for them. Civil discourse at it’s finest.
At the end of the day, it’s only a political debate, and assuming it’s the arguments, and not the people being attacked, there’s no reason why everyone can’t go home happy. If one side is too stubborn, or is not arguing in good faith, one can always walk away. It’s not about “Winning” or “Losing” but about building consensus, and forming ideological roadways that allow each side to understand others’ view better.
As for my own “Why” in regards to my stance against Third-wave Feminism, and promotion of an egalitarian system that treats the law as gender-neutral, all too often I’ve seen the likes of Miss Binx attempt to stifle or even silence civil discourse when it comes to any form of dissent. It has been my experience that Third-Wave Feminists do not enter debates in good faith, that is to say, with a threshold of evidence that could potentially change their minds about their stance. Quite a few folks that consider themselves “Pro-Equality”, such as the aforementioned Wife, to use an example besides myself, cannot find themselves supporting what they have seen out of 3rd-Wave Feminism (Hereafter “3WF”, since I am tired of typing out the entire term repeatedly). They have seen, as have I, how blatantly and utterly Anti-Male the 3WF’s can be, both in suppressing dissent by using emotional-blackmail smears such as “Rape Apologist”, “Incest Lover”, and other abhorrent ad hom attacks, and in how easily they will dismiss any idea that there are issues that could possibly affect men, from an equality standpoint.
I will openly admit that there are still equality issues to work on, but much of the work has been finished, much more than 3WF’s would have you think, at least. I can concede there are issues to work on, but imo, it’s on BOTH sides of the gender arena, not just one side. However, to those who still think 3WF is an Equality movement, I ask…”If one class of gender is sentenced to more severe sentences, on average 60% of the time, for the same crime the other gender-class has committed, is this not the very definition of sexual favoritism? Is this not a sign of inequality in the system? So where are the Feminist Orgs calling for equality in criminal sentencing, either by reducing the sentences given to men to fit the sentences of women, or by increasing the sentences of women to match those of men, when they have been convicted of the same crimes?”
Until these, and many more questions and issues (Too many to list here) are addressed, or at least have begun to be seriously addressed, rather than things such as “How sexist video games are” by con-artists that can be debunked simply by watching other people play the same games, 3WF is not a movement I can take seriously, as a movement that desires serious, lasting change for the better. Worse, their tendency to not only NOT distance themselves from the rhetoric of their more extreme populace, but to embrace it with cries of “You go, Girl!” leads me to believe that not only do they not disapprove of this zealous behavior, they welcome it! Even the Christians know better than to not distance themselves from the Westboro Baptist Church, as an Institution, but 3WF won’t even go that route. They are perfectly content, it seems, to let this zealous arm command and hijack the debate for them (Whether due to volume or perceived assertiveness, I have no clue), and while moderates like LaughGirl above denounce them individually, the fact remains that these zealots are still allowed to sit under the collective banner of “Feminism” and spread their hatred.
I understand the frustrations of moderates like LaughGirl at being associated with these toxic individuals, but the fact remains, until the establishment of the movement (As in, the “Silent Majority” we are always told vastly outnumbers the “Vocal Minority”) comes out of their silence and openly, repeatedly, and regularly denounce these extremists for the toxic zealots that they are, they will continue to be associated with them by the zeitgeist of American Politics, if not Global Politics.
Gender Equality is a noble goal. 3WF, I do not see as champions of that goal, plain and simple.
@ Publius:
Another “different strokes” deal, I guess. I focused on the core concept he was expressing, while you focused on the individual instance. I suppose that works.
It got to a point where I realized her name sounds similar to a particular Dolores Umbridge… Nevermind that, I’m convinced now.
@Publius
I am glad that I hit “refresh” on the page in time to see your post before hitting “submit” on my response to Avian Mosquito (AM hereafter).
Essentially you and I are arriving at the same point from two differing paths, I would agree. I think AM might have misunderstood my comment, whereas it appears you caught the point I was shooting for.
I would concede that getting the person to ask the question of themselves is the overwhelming preference. I would also point out that as AM suggested, not nearly enough people are capable or willing to ask the questions for themselves. Sometimes the alternative method I suggest of asking them questions directly that address the topic will yield the same result.
People are willing to answer innocuous questions and oftentimes you can lead someone down the path you wish until they finally reach the proverbial carrot by reaching up and grabbing it themselves. Also, I believe the person that is able to grasp the carrot on their own is much more likely to retain the carrot, rather than discard it. The other reasoning I have behind my methods is that sometimes (as is the case here *smile*) you can get a response that you either didn’t anticipate, or one that forces you to re-evaluate your own position.
It is that last part that is the main reason I choose a Socratic Method. I use it not necessarily to reinforce my own position, but to more fully understand the opposing views so that I might myself contrast their line of thinking to my own and evaluate based on their answers/arguments which makes the most sense. The hope is that by the end of the discussion, there are revelations on both sides, not just one.
@ Avian Mosquito:
Pretty much. In my view, all change comes from an individual-level, upwards throughout society. Like a forest fire that begins with a tiny ember, it has to start somewhere. It’s why I tend to focus so much on individual debates, instead of trying to debate the entire ideology. If you can convince an individual, and like you said, it doesn’t even have to be the one you’re debating, to re-examine their views, you’ve set some sparks of potential change loose.
The LGBT community, for example, didn’t gain so much traction by going out and saying (An oversimplification, to be sure, but relevant to the argument) “Look at us! We are Rainbow Squad! We have demands!” They gained so much traction, because they made connections on an individual level. They showed the American Public that LGBT are not some vague stereotype dressed up in chaps and tight pink/purple shirts. They are daughters, sons, Mothers and Fathers. In short, they humanized themselves and their movement. That was one of the primary tactics of Second-Wave Feminism moderates, at least the ones I feel privileged (*Wink wink*) to know from my younger years…and not even they want to associate with the modern movement.
On the note of your earlier post, I was lucky enough to find myself a bookworm. Incidentally, part of the reason you see my posts so level-headed, is because I get a lot of exercise in my debate skills with said redhead, as we tend to have debate sparring to resolve relationship gripes, as opposed to the typical yelling matches. I def found myself a gem of a woman, and I wouldn’t give her up unless it made her happy to. And that, I don’t see coming anytime soon. :-p
@Publius
As far as the notion presented in this arc, I wholeheartedly agree with the points you make about 3WF. I was required for my degree program to take several women’s studies classes. One of the things I would repeatedly bring up, especially in Women and Globalization is that while it is admirable that women have accomplished various things on their own, wouldn’t the results be so much more fantastic if men had been involved in the success? I would ask my classmates, many of whom were budding feminists, why not involve the men? Not for the sake of “men are better, one cannot accomplish anything without them,” but rather “the successes will be more lasting and more easily repeated if one can include others.”
It is a dangerous path to walk to include in a social movement only those who think/look/act like oneself. It has the tendency to reinforce beliefs without question. I think (if they took the time to try) many 3WF adherents would find men all too willing to help and be amenable to their cause if they would ask them and sit down and talk with them as equals.
I also managed to surround myself with people who have moderated my approach to discourse. I often find myself rethinking, deleting, and retyping my messages many times, re-reading comments before submitting. I find that my final product is far from the same as what I originally set out to type.
@ Publius:
Too tired to address the serious stuff, the bit at the end is all I can muster the energy for right now.
I only split from my wife because I chose to move in with my grandparents to help them afford their own place, she didn’t want to go with me and she saw it as me putting my grandparents over her. (To which I reply: “Don’t be ridiculous. If your issue was as severe as theirs, I’d pick you over them without a second thought. But your issue is NOT as severe as theirs. They can’t afford a place by themselves, you just don’t want to live with the people we used to hide our relationship from, and you’re scared my mentally ill mother will occasionally stop by.” But, of course, she didn’t take it so well.) We still get along, we still see eachother frequently. Hell, we still have sex. But we don’t live together and likely never will again, or at least until my grandparents no longer need my help or she gets over her irrational fear of them.
To all those saying she would get fired, sadly, in reality she probably even wouldn’t. The Teacher’s Union would simply see that she gets shuffled off to a new school.
@ Soc:
I definitely agree with you on the not of political movements and the “Echo-Chamber” effect. Incidentally, it’s one of my primary criticisms of the Republican Party, especially the GOP. Having some idealogues in the party is okay, but it’s the moderates that get stuff done, via consensus-building. It’s a fine balance to maintain, too many idealogues, and your Party/Movement resemble a church more than they do an ideology. Too many moderates, and the party/movement agenda loses it’s form. At some point, the Republicans, as will the 3WF, will have to decide if they want a Church or a Political Ideology/Party. Until that time comes, both groups will continue to alienate moderates, left and right, as they seek to enforce conformity. And I say this as someone who was raised by a Goldwater Republican, which should indicate my reasoning for my distaste of the Republicans/GOP.
As for what you said about opposing views, I have a friend from Maryland who is much more left-leaning than I am, and I engage with him regularly. It’s an interesting relationship, but at the end of the day, no matter how heated debate gets, we understand it’s just a debate. It’s no reason to end a friendship. As the old song goes, “There ain’t no good guy, there ain’t no bad guy. There’s only you and me and we just disagree.”
@ Publius:
Keep in mind we paint all Christians with the same crush as their extremists. Men’s Rights people are also starting to be drawn with he same brush as their extremists like the redpill guys.
All groups get painted with the colors of their extremists. Happened to muslims too.
@ BillNoSpoilers (BumbleKing):
uhhh
you do relise that cloud is kinda based off of a carector from the final fantasy series, right?
My biggest problem with this mess is that we are choosing to get up in arms instead of stopping to laugh and enjoy ourselves. The comic is still very funny. People take themselves and others too seriously.
Anyone else flashing back to a certain former warden of the woods? I bet they are related.
Okay, I’d like to establish that this woman is not a feminist. Feminism is about believing and advocating that women should be on equal terms as men. Though I am sure there are some people who believe that feminism is about feminine superiority, I like to think most of us are not like that, and that people who are are sexist jerks. That being said, there are women who have been severely wronged by men and have been given the idea that all men are evil, but I’d say that’s justified, even if I don’t agree with them or think it’s healthy. Anyway, that’s my two cents. Take it as you will.
@ LaughGirl:
In my experience, Men’s Rights Activists have always been painted with the brush of “Misogynist”. However, my point is not to defend MRA’s (I don’t count myself amongst their ranks, and they have their own brand of crazy they are reluctant, if not against, denouncing as a movement.), it is to point out why so many people associate moderates like yourself with the typical 3WF like Miss Binx, above. Yes, Christians get painted with a rather large brush. As someone from the secular community, I see it often, and I take steps to correct said unfair generalizations when I notice them pop up. That being said, there are cogent criticisms that apply to the faith, as a whole. But that’s irrelevant to my overall point.
You’ll notice, however, that even the Fundamentalist Christians were quick to distance themselves from the WBC when they first popped onto the scene. And immediately after the WTC attacks, mosques the world over rushed to denounce the attack, as Islam was a Religion of Peace. While I will agree to disagree on the religion-of-peace bit, I don;t think they were off the mark in their intent, which was to denounce the attacks as the work of extremist zealots.
As I mentioned earlier, until the Silent Majority we moderates are always hearing about in regards to “Feminism” (Placed in quotes because you often don’t know whether someone is a zealot or a moderate under that banner until they start specifying their agenda for the ideology) begin regularly and repeatedly denouncing the more extreme in your ideology, as a movement and with solidarity, the majority of folks, moderate and not, will associate moderate feminists like yourself with the more extreme. It’s a sad reality that you have to do so, to get that result, but that’s how politics and activism work.
Did anybody else notice the masked helpe gloves change from shot gloves to elbow long gloves?
To all who are thinking that these events are cannon, do you really think that there is such a thing as “Morality Police”? Someone obviously fell asleep in class.
Let me just say that I found this whole comment section this page to be interesting, entertaining, and educational.
You’ve definitely had success in informing at least one individual more on the issue than he knew before. Likely with many more as well.
@Publius, @Avian Mosquito, and @Soc All of you rock.
As for the comic page itself I laughed pretty hard. Especially at the “REAL MEN DON’T PEE!” sign.
SmartAlec105 wrote:
You may not know that pink was originally a boys colour [red was mens] and that Blue was the colour for girls. It is why all those early paintings show both boys and girls in curls and dressed in blue, to confuse assassins/kidnapper on who the heir was. Hint, never the girl.
You’ll have to cut down all the trees and bushes around school, too, ma’am…
Pink only became a woman’s color because of Hitler.@ SmartAlec105:
@ CDRom11_2007:
You obviously haven’t been in women’s bathroom.
Well a centaur herd may help the issue… but I would pretty much prefer seeing her beeing burn by a red dragon beeing riden by Larisa…
Please move off this line. This hits too close to home. The man haters in my sons elementary school tried to put EVERY boy on ritalin. It isn’t funny. Funny is something unexpected. This is pathetically all too lifelike.
Is anyone else just not finding these “crazy feminist” comics funny? I’m not offended, I just think it’s reached the point where it just looks like an idiot’s idea of feminism, which I’ve all heard before. It’s not close enough to reality to be funny to me, but its not ridiculous enough to be hilarious. It’s in between, and somehow that’s just boring.
Still, everyone’s tastes in humour are different.
I’m sorry, for the first time in reading this comic strip – I think this storyline is nonsense.
Meine Entschuldigung. Zum ersten Mal in der dieses Comic Lessen – ich denke, das (Geschichte) ist Unsinn.
@ Jerden:
Its not an idiot’s guide to feminism. Its about an idiot who calls themselves a feminist. This isn’t how feminism works. IF you want good examples of women as role models and shows that women can do awesome things, just read the whole comic. So many strong females. Cloud’s mother and sister are very strong as are the rest of the women in the cast. This is one of the most feminist web comics out there.
@ jwk:
While I sympathize with your plight (I had a similar teacher when I was in grade school, so I understand the memories it invokes), I for one, am interested in seeing where Oliver takes this angle. Even Bill Watterson (Calvin and Hobbes), a man known for his sarcastic wit in humor, occasionally approached the more serious and controversial topics in C&H, normally a humor strip, so I am not opposed to seeing it done here.
Pee on the wood in the morning. Behold! Morning wood!
Slip the school some chocolate Exlax and see how fast those boards come down.
@ Publius:
Finally, someone who gets it.
Well, urine trouble now Cloud.
@ Crimsonfalke:
Feminazi does not equal feminism. They are two different things.
For one thing, most feminists know that penises are a biological organ.
I believed this strip was way over the top, bordering complete insanity, to be taken seriously. I was wrong.
being raceist…
Use Jarate on her!
@ Admiral Halsey:
She probably used her goons and the “privilege-o-meter” to intimidate the principal into submission.
Novil wrote:
Well, the internet itself is always over the top and completely, utterly insane :p
Hmmm. Okay, for the first time, I feel the need to comment on this. Not on the comic, it’s pretty much the standard fare from the artist. No, I feel the need to comment on the community. We *just* had an entire strip series making fun of christian extremists. I laughed. Everybody seemed to have a good time with nobody really getting bent out of shape. Now we have the SAME EXACT THING on feminism, and a bunch of people lose their bloody mind!
I can only say I am disappointed.